专访 | 复旦经院海外优秀学者授课项目-伦敦政治经济学院副教授马德斌谈中国经济史研究

个人简介

马德斌（Debin Ma），1998年于美国北卡罗莱纳大学获得经济学博士，在日本一桥大学做博士后研究，后就职于日本政策研究大学，美国密苏里大学圣路易分校，现为英国伦敦政治经济学院终身副教授, 复旦大学经济学院教授。任2012-2015年国际经济史学大会(International Economic History Association)秘书长和理事。也是亚洲经济史学会（Asian Historical Economics Society）的创办人之一，目前任欧洲经济政策研究中心（CEPR），澳大利亚国立大学，英国华威大学，复旦大学等中心的研究员。

马德斌先生主要研究兴趣为中国以及东亚的长期经济增长、制度与法律对经济增长的影响、中国与东亚其他国家以及欧洲国家长期经济发展的比较，以及国际生活水平比较等方面研究。他的研究曾多次获得美国国家科学基金会及英国LeverhulmTrust等机构赞助，是众多长期经济统计研究项目的重要组成成员。其在Journal of Economic Literature, Journal of Economic History等国际知名经济史学期刊上发表数十篇论文，在海内外出版编辑多本专著文集等。近来，马德斌先生担任剑桥大学出版社丛书编辑，主要负责New Approaches to Economic and Social History部分，同时他也是Economic History Review, Explorations in Economic History,Accounting History Review, Frontier of Economics等多家期刊编辑委员会成员。他最近与Loren Brandt 和 ThomasG. Rawski 共同研究并发表了“FromDivergence to Convergence: Re-evaluating the History behind China’s Economic Boom”一文，刊登在Journal of Economic Literature。

近日，复旦大学经济学院海外优秀学者授课项目邀请到伦敦政治经济学院副教授马德斌做了题为：Why Did Industrial Revolution Not Happen in China First? 的讲座。之后马德斌教授作为经济学院第10期“中国大问题”讲堂演讲嘉宾又给同学们带来了题为：'货币与信用：一个中国的历史故事'的讲座。随后，马德斌教授接受了经济学院新闻信息中心的专访。

I know that your research interest is economic history. History is so important especially in economics field. We have to know what was going on in the past in order to know what's going to be in the future. So I'm curious that how did you choose economic history as your research interest? Could you please introduce your development path of your research?

据我所知，马教授您的研究兴趣在于经济史。历史对于经济学来说至关重要，我们需要知道过去发生了什么以理解将来可能会发生什么。我很好奇您是出于什么原因选择经济史作为您的研究方向？能给我们介绍一下您的研究发展路径吗？

Well, thank you. That's actually a question I sometimes think about myself. I started without thinking that economic history would be my major. I actually got enrolled in the Economic Department of University of NorthCarolina at Chapel Hill, which happened to be very strong in economic history research. I've always been interested in humanities and reading all kinds of books and so on. I'm not that excited about mathematics and proof. I think initially, even though a topic such as the Needham Puzzle why Industrial Revolution would not happen in China – is very remote, it still attracted me. That's the question got me very interested in economic history research.

好的，谢谢。其实我自己有时也会思考这个问题。我刚开始的时候没有想过经济史会是我的专业，我被北卡经济系录取的时候，碰巧北卡经济系的经济史方向非常出色。而我一直对人文和阅读十分感兴趣，而觉得数学推导不那么有趣。另一方面，起初的时候李约瑟难题—为什么中国没有工业革命十分吸引我。我就自然地选择了经济史作为我的研究方向。

You studied in so many countries and cities, first in Shanghai, then in US, then in Japan, and now teach in UK. Did you choose those counties or placesfor purpose, or did those countries choose you?

您辗转多国，先后在中国上海、美国和日本求学，现在又在英国任教，您是按照您的学术道路选择了这些国家呢，还是在这些国家的游学、工作经历最终形成了您的研究道路？

I'm very fortunate to be able to experience various culture in so many countries. I grew up in Shanghai. It's good to come back here. I've known Fudan University since I was a kid. Initially I went to US at the time when we Chinese students did not have too many choices. So I was very lucky to go abroad to pursue academic study. When I was in US, I became very interested in comparing Japanese and Chinese economic history that why Japanese economics developed so quickly given that Japan shared so many commonalities in culture with China. I did a dissertation on comparing Japanese and Chinese modernization. This is why I went to Japan for my post doctor. Then I came back to US for research and then went to Japan again. After that, a position of LSE opened up, which happened to be a position specialized for Economic History Department. That's very rare and this opportunity does not come very often. In one word, It's not a one-way choice, instead we chose each other.

我很幸运我能够体验那么多国家以及文化。我从小生长在上海，也十分高兴能再次回到家乡，来到从小就经常听说的复旦大学。起初我去美国的时候，那个时候不同现在，那时的中国学生的选择也十分受限。所以我是十分幸运能够去国外进行学习，当我在美国的时候，我对日本经济史与中国经济史的比较非常感兴趣。我那时在探究日本经济为何会取得如此快速的发展，同时日本和中国在文化上又有如此多的相近之处。我的毕业论文就是关于日本与中国现代化的比较。这也是为什么我去了日本做博士后研究。后来又回到了美国，又去了日本做研究。之后刚好LSE有一个专门关于经济史的教职职位开放，这样的机会是十分罕见的，我就去了英国。我觉得这并不是一个单向选择，是双向选择。

Based on your international experience, you must have communicated with students all over the world. I wonder that what's the gap between Chinese students and students in US, UK and Japan?

根据您的国际经历，您一定和许多国家的学生交流过，您认为中国学生与美国，英国以及日本学生的差异体现在哪儿呢？

I think we all know there're certain stereotypes that American students are much more active while Asian students are much more passive, which are not necessarily correct or wrong. Education in America promoted active learning, while education in China emphasizes on tools , memorizing, and following the master. Education in China does train people very well in tools and skills. On the other hand, in US and UK, other country's history is in the curriculum. I think it's time for us to educate students to know more about world history and cultures to be much more aware of many differences elsewhere. In many cases, we should also be very respectful about the differences, which is quite important.

我们会有美国学生更主动，而亚洲学生偏被动的既定印象。很难判定这种既定印象是正确或是错误。美国教育更鼓励自主学习，而中国教育侧重于方法论，记忆或者说是跟着老师学的学习方式。方法论这一方面，中国教育的确能很好地训练学生。另一方面，在美国英国其他国家的历史也是在课程设置当中的。我想我们国家也要考虑教育学生放眼世界，多学一点世界史，更多地意识到差异的存在，并对这些差异保有尊敬的态度，这是十分重要的。

As a student, I rarely have access to the historical data or other materials and we can only read the research results of modern researchers. There may be many differences between these results, sometimes completely contradictory, owing to using different historical materials, for example, choosing a different time section,or studying in different research methods. As a beginner, how do you think we should treat these different findings?

作为学生，一般接触不到史料，看到的多是现代研究者的研究成果，这些结果可能有差异甚至是相互矛盾的。其中的原因可能是史料不同，抽取了不同的时间截面，也可能是研究方法的差异。作为学生这一类初学者，您认为我们应该以一种怎么样的态度对待这些不同的研究结论呢？

When I was teaching in LSE, I tried to emphasize on the way how we apply economic theoryto history. History itself is quite different and it can be unique in different ways. You would read many articles or books which disagree with each other.This is very different from principle of economics. You need to build your own judgments on controversial views. The world is full of contradictions. Economic history or applied economics encourages you to go and look at things yourself. This is something I can tell from my own experience. Before I visit any places, I might have view about that certain place from newspaper. Once I visit that place, I might form a different opinion. Therefore, economic history encourages you to discover things by yourself and form your own opinion. While discovering, you compare different sources of materials and you find contradictions. It’s really important to read with questions in mind. Whether it's a good research question is usually the standard to judge whether it’s agood research. Even the Needham puzzle seems like a crazy question, it really inspires many people. All the existing truth may not be correct, but we have to deal with it carefully and respectfully.

当我在LSE教书的时候，我经常向我的学生们强调我们是怎样将经济学原理运用到历史上的，十分注重过程。历史本身可以是十分不同的，从不同的角度看历史都是独特的。你可能会看到许多互相矛盾的文献文章，这时你就需要形成你对这些矛盾观点的自己的判断。这个世界是充满矛盾的。经济史或是应用经济学鼓励你去审视自己。从我自身经验来看，在我去其他国家之前，我可能从报纸就得知了一些对这些国家的印象。而一旦我自己亲身去了这些国家，我可能会形成不同的观点。自主去探究并形成自己的观点对于经济史研究是很关键的。当你探究的时候，你会比较不同文章的信息的来源以及原始资料，你会发现矛盾，而这些矛盾会是形成观点的关键点。大家时常要记得带着问题阅读。很多时候评判一个学术研究好不好的标准之一就是这个学术研究提出的问题好不好。例如，李约瑟难题看起来是一个疯狂的问题，但它是一个好问题，启发了很多人。现在存在的这些文献并不一定是完全正确的，我们要用谨慎且尊敬的态度看待这些观点。

Speaking of questions, it seems that Chinese students are not good at raising questions. What's your view on this issue?

说到提问题，中国学生似乎不怎么擅长提出问题，您怎么看呢？

I don't think Chinese students are not good at it, we're just not told to raise questions. When I teach in UK, we have big lectures as well as seminars, smaller classes where students can do their own presentations. When we do exam, we give an essay question and tell students that you need to construct your answer with solid evidence. You are evaluated by how you construct and support your answer with questions but not by how correct your answer is. We don't have a correct answer. I think it's the way we can encourage students to think independently. It's important to sit down to lookfor the gaps in literature where you can find problematic questions.

我不认为中国学生不擅长提问，而是他们没有被鼓励提问。我在英国教书的时候，大的课堂讲座上学生可以提问，也有小课研讨会学生会做自己观点的展示。我出考卷的时候出的都是essay，并没有所谓的正确答案。评判标准则基于学生怎样用逻辑去将自己的论据支撑自己的论点，如何组织他的观点以及思路。这种方法能鼓励学生独立思考。有时候，坐下来仔细发现文献中的差异很重要，往往这些差异就会是问题的灵感。

What is the relationship between Quantitative history research methods (cliometrics) and traditional history research methods?

量化历史方法和传统历史方法是什么关系呢？

Quantitative history research is becoming easier these days. Economic history is usually under economics department. Therefore, researchers need to find economic principle in history to satisfy the economic department. Another thing is that historical data is totally different from contemporary data. But historical data can be very rich and one of the main jobs of cliometrician is to compile the data. For instance, interest rates in China for a thousand years were documented in different contracts. We need to look carefully at the claims that interest rate is high or low in a certain period. And we can also use economic theory to understand the long term development of finance in China,which can not be explained in purely narrative economic history. We have to carefully interpret the historical information with a deep knowledge in history and a deep understanding in historical context. Quantitative historians may have an advantage over contemporary researchers because we have a long term view.

如今量化历史方法越来越容易以及普遍了。根据传统，经济史往往设置在经济系下，因此很多学者会被要求从历史中发现经济学原理的应用，这也是量化历史方法兴起的缘由之一。另一方面，历史数据和现代意义上的数据是很不一样的。历史数据可以十分丰富，而量化经济史学者的主要工作之一就是编译这些数据。举个例子，中国一千年以来的利率需要在很多不同的合同找出并编译出来。对于某段时间内对利率过高或过低的评判我们需要仔细研究并判断这种说法合理性，有可能因为时间段的差异，利率高低的标准也会发生改变。我们也会用经济学院里来理解中国长期以来的金融发展，而这些是叙述性历史研究方法并不能解释的。量化历史学家对于信息数据的编译需要十分谨慎，并有大量的背景知识，才能获取有效数据。更多时候，量化历史研究学者比现代量化经济研究学者更有优势因为他们的眼界更宽，看问题也更长远。

How would you evaluate the current research work on history of economics in China? What's the difference do you think between China's economic history research and that of the United States, Britain and Japan?

您如何评价中国当下的经济史研究？中国的经济史研究和美国、英国、日本相比存在哪些差异？

Things have changed over the last 15 years. When I first graduated from my PHD, there wasn't really much ideas about Chinese economic history. Chinese economic history was quite cut off at that time because Chinese historians only knew about China and didn't have the chance to go abroad, and also because of the lack of methodology. Now economic history is getting very popular in China. We have summer camp, wechat public account, and a lot of excellent economichistorians in Fudan. Things are turning around in many ways. Economic history is not just history for history sakes, it can be interesting to people in the present and also in the future. In US, UK, and Japan, economic history is a well-established field with a lot of scholars and schools, and the scope forbig discovery is somewhat narrow. In comparison, in China, there's still so much to be discovered. If you have the right tools and mindset, I think the future of economic history is quite bright.

过去十五年，中国经济史研究发生了很大的变化。我博士毕业的时候，还没有中国经济史的概念。当时中国经济史研究和国际经济史研究是脱轨的，一个原因可能是中国的历史学者没有机会去到国外学习交流。另一个原因就是研究方法的缺失。现在中国经济史研究十分普遍了。我们有举办夏令营的活动，有专门的微信公众号，复旦也有许多十分优秀的量化经济史研究学者。从很多角度，中国经济史研究都有了很大的转变。在英美，经济史已经是一个十分健全的领域，有很多学者和学派，可以继续探究的东西就很少，现在的研究只是在现有的研究做一些添加补充。而在中国经济史领域则有太多可以探索研究的新领域。如果你有正确的工具以及思维模式，我认为中国经济史研究的未来是一片光明。

采访稿撰写：徐莉

采访及整理：陆冠文